It dogecoins be that surprising to anyone on Wowe News: You dogecoins it yourself. Their subreddit has over 12, subscribers and it's just under 2 weeks old. Such audio, very decibel i. That would be a strong indicator of long-term stickiness. I mean, it's a joke If wowe taxes could go negative for assets decreasing in value.
No worries I'll just wait here. Looks like about 1. That's 98, dogecoin transactions in the past 24 hours. In early , I might "give gold" or "gild" comments or posts I like on reddit. Do you clean them out of all the dollars they have?
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Perhaps the next currency to emerge will be corporate sponsored rather than state-sponsored, as corporations are still rising in power over states, but it will be a wowe interesting century, because most of the national currencies probably won't survive it, and byno-one will be using physical tokens for payments cash. In earlyI might "give gold" dogecoins "gild" comments or posts I like on reddit. KVFinn days ago. Dogecoins worth noting that when we talk about money we're trying wowe describe emergent phenomena. Thus they have to work to get fiat. These dogecoins only cover how many dogecoins wowe being dogecoins, not how much they're wowe.
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How does that work? Do the later people have to wait until someone buys some BTC and puts in dollars? If you have two people waiting for dollars out, who gets the dollars you just got? First one to request to get out? Those questions are the "liquidity argument" if you want to call it that. Who pays the price for not being able to convert coins? Lets say the price of BTC plummets, people head for the doors and want their money in dollars now.
Does the exchange give them dollars that they won't recover? Or do they wait on all withdrawals until the number stabilizes and the pay out at that price? In the former the institution takes the risk, in the later the customer takes the risk.
I totally get the BTC market as an awesome way to exchange markers securely. I'm not sure how it gets to be a currency without something providing the banking function. There are a lot of question marks in your comment and I'm sure some of them are meant to be rhetorical and maybe some aren't.
Also you mentioned something about exchanges talking to central banks which isn't something that happens. Your fictional example is: I've got ,BTC, please convert that into dollars for me at the market rate. That isn't the kind of thing you do at the teller window.
That kind of liquidity doesn't exist in bitcoin though it would be a cinch in other major currencies. At this point you are in need of a really clever broker to find you someone to take the other side of the trade at a price that doesn't totally suck.
Though that probably isn't very likely You seem to imply that the exchange has some responsibility here that I don't understand. The exchange matches buyers and sellers at a price they can both agree on.
If there are no buyers for what you are trying to sell, that's too bad but it isn't the exchange's problem. Go look on the CME product list and you'll see tons of contracts that are listed but have no bids because nobody is interested in trading them.
If you want to trade a shitload of a questionable thing then you just might find there's no bid. The price for not being able to sell a thing is paid by the people that own the thing especially if they purchased the thing with borrowed monies and they are forced to price the thing by marking it to the market. I think maybe your question is just "What happens if you want to sell bitcoins and nobody wants to buy them?
We are talking about the same thing. That particular point is lost on a lot of people who are looking at Bitcoin. They see the surface aspect. That leap doesn't work because there is no equivalent of a market maker in BTC. I explain to folks who are wondering about BTC like this, "the more you want to trade the less they are worth, probably all the way to zero.
It is the difference between a currency and a collectibles market. Euros are the former, BTC are the latter. My brother in law was buying property in europe and needed to do the transaction in Euros, prior to closing escrow he noticed that at the Hotel desk in the Caribbean where he was staying they had a better conversion rate than the bank had quoted him.
I agree though, generally large foreign exchange transfers are scheduled things but they aren't all that complicated and seem to happen in the same 24 hr transaction window that other wire transfers do.
Dylan days ago. I bet there are currencies from small countries that are harder than bitcoin to exchange without crashing the price. I don't think your distinction is a good one. At the point of sale, I do not have access to this market, so my Euros are not liquid.
Another way to think about access: The actual form that you have the asset in matters. Selling such a high position would lower the price of bitcoin on all the exchanges, until enough people would be willing to buy them. So both the money and the btc would come from people willing to buy Bitcoin. Plus a zillion here.
There should be a war on ignorance, so that we don't have to read comments like yours anymore. When oil isn't priced in USD what do you think it will be priced in? And what do you think CIA will be able to do about it? Euros or dinars, or anything that looks less of a ponzi scheme than the USD.
What will the CIA be able to do? What I said, overthrow their democratically elected leader, create terrorist groups, etc: You might also have heard of Libya? For many years it seemed likely it would be the Euro. However, it seems that Iran stopped trading oil in USD as of and apparently now uses a variety of other currencies[0], although I haven't looked into this to see if it actually happened yet.
I'd be interested to know if Iran went ahead with its plan to stop accepting USD altogether. I'd personally be surprised if threats and posturing regarding Iran's nuclear program went away without some sort of agreement on USD oil trade. If Iran has stuck to its plan to stop accepting USD for oil AND the US backs off I think that signals a pretty significant loss for the US not just in terms of its relationship with Iran but ultimately, in the long term, in its attempts to remain a dominant force in the global economy.
It would be a result of pressure from an international community that the US government feels it needs to keep on side, but also conversely an international community that may have an interest in reducing the economic dominance of the US. Your second question is an interesting one. I'm not willing to stick my neck on the line and predict the end of US hegemony is nigh I'm not really a crystal ball kind of person but I'd just say that the signs of a superpower fighting for its position should be evident.
There will come a point where the US can no longer risk such interventions. Having read a bit more though not much, to be honest, so I'm happy to be corrected it seems the Oil Bourse is for oil-derived products not crude oil it actually says this on the Wikipedia article, doh. Also part of the agreement that reduced sanctions on Iran was to stop taking gold as payment for oil[1].
So there's no need to worry about the US' position in the world just yet. Anyway, hopefully in some members of OPEC will be seriously advocating trading oil in dogecoin ;.
I specifically said I wasn't an expert. We're arguing the same thing. You're totally right that those are the first-order reasons. Sorry, my Marxism is showing. Maybe shouldn't have mixed that concept in, good call. That's why I describe myself as 'scared. You won't find me quitting my job and starting that project any time soon. Absolutely, which is why you have to account for that when making the trades. I assumed that was too basic to bother to mention.
Sorry steveklabnik, I would have replied sooner but got stuck on a long phone call. I thought the post was worthy of a reasonably harsh takedown comment sidenote: HN loves harsh takedown comments because of its hubris.
We SF computer guys have got this shit all figured out. Paper currencies are bullshit because x, y, z. I'm a tech person as I'm sure all of you are, but I think we are doing ourselves a disservice when we show up in other fields as arrogant outsiders proclaiming truth without understanding any of the details.
I follow you on twitter and I think you understand this in terms of employment gender and discrimination issues but maybe not so much in terms of macroeconomic topics. I enjoy your other comments on HN, i've upvoted many of them. I probably should have been working today rather than writing blog posts, oh well.
I do not think paper currencies are bullshit. I really really hate it when people say 'fiat' as a derogatory term. I also agree that SF techies running into other people's fields is terrible.
However, economics is a field that I have actually attempted to educate myself on. This post was written with my 'junior economist' hat on, not my 'software dev' hat. I think that you undervalue the role of imperialism with regards to the purchasing power of USD, but really, that whole thing is a sidenote anyway. I still am unclear as to what your actual objection is.
Oh, and that lack of consumer protection, like the FDIC insurance you mention, will harm people until we take cryptocurrency seriously and regulate it like we do other financial instruments. I think that you undervalue the role of imperialism with regards to the purchasing power of USD Point me to a historical example of the US government saying "Use dollars or else!
I think foreigners use dollars because dollars are actually a really great currency relative to the local alternative My objection to your argument is that USD is better than alternative cryptocurrencies because the Federal Reserve does a good job of managing the stability of the value of the currency, and that's a social good for everyone.
If your latte costs 3 dogecoins today and 6 dogecoins tomorrow you can be like "lol. But if a bushel of wheat doubles or triples in price overnight because it's priced in some weird volatile currency, people will starve. And that's not funny. I moved to Chicago recently and I work on the technology behind some of the commodities markets here. I guess that has sort of forced me to think more about these kinds of things. If you are in Chicago hit me up and we can bullshit face to face over coffee that's probably better than whatever you have in SF.
Basically, I agree with Greenspan, before he recanted: But really, I don't think modern imperialism works via direct threat. That was the style of the s. You won't find a direct statement to 'use the dollar or else,' you'll just find lots of wars and economic sanctions.
I don't think cryptocurrencies are 'better' than USD. I agree that the Fed is good for basically everyone, or at least, I don't think abolishing the Fed is a good idea. I've been thinking about this more because I moved here to work for a payments company, so ha! I'll certainly tweet if I'm ever there, and feel free to go take the blue line to Forest Park and put some flowers on Emma Goldman's grave for me ; I bet the coffee is better there, luckily, I don't really have a taste for good coffee, it's all just about the chemicals for me.
Articulate days ago. I think you are overlooking some serious changes to the way the Fed regulates the money supply in the last five years. They are printing over 85 billion dollars every month. The stock market is soaring The result is a market that looks like it is doing great but is quiet volatile itself. I agree that we should be very careful to just suddenly start running around yelling "the sky is falling" but I have heard an economist at the Fed during a banking townhall say "We are in totally uncharted territory" referring to how they will pull back all of the liquidity they have pumped into the market.
You are correct that individuals around the world views the US dollar as stable and prefer to keep at least some portion of their wealth in US backed treasuries- but I would caution anyone from thinking that this is a foregone conclusion.
The fed uses a few people to try and hit multiple targets all at the same time The Fed is first and foremost a US-centric org. Whereas cryptocurrencies use the global market to find their level- whatever people agree is the price is the price You can only pay your taxes in Federal Reserve Notes which are neither Federal, not backed by any reserve, and not notes.
Same as in ancient China and many other empires and countries - people can be forced to use fiat if they go to jail for not paying their taxes. Thus they have to work to get fiat. Your statement about the Federal Reserve is laughable I suggest some remedial learning, perhaps Ron Paul, or even just Zerohedge. Confusion days ago. I don't understand how you could read Steve's post as saying 'we have got this shit figured out' and 'proclaiming truth'. It's just someone's take on crypto currency; no reason to get all huffy about mistakes, let alone about disagreements.
You said it yourself. People are scared by this. Anger comes with fear. Alan Greenspan is of the opinion that our Iraq wars were 'largely about oil' and economic stability.
The point is debatable, but certainly not completely ignorant bullshit. If the 'point of a gun' element was the major determinant in how much currencies are worth, Zimbabwe, which had and has a military sufficient to kill its own citizens, would never have had hyperinflation. The US's place in the global economy is just a bit difference than Zimbabwe, so that's a false equivalence.
I was talking about imperialism, not "buy stuff with the national money, citizen! The American hegemony is bigger and involves a lot more moving parts, sure, but is that really a difference in kind rather than scale? And if being a global superpower is the key to running an economy based on fiat money, how did it get that big in the first place? America didn't start with fiat. The transcontinental railroads http: This led to an economic boom.
Then two world wars destroyed Europe while leaving America virtually untouched. In the aftermath America had risen to superpower status http: Plasmoid days ago. Actually, currencies are considered to be the ultimate commodity. They're even susceptible to runs and shortages. Think of it this way, what is the price of money?
In this way, money has a price. So if the price of money goes up, by say everyone worrying that they'll lose their job and not spending anything, "prices" for goods will drop. Conversely, you can get runs when people think their money will lose value, eg during a war or disaster. I'd argue that cryptocurrencies have a fair amount of commodity worth to them. The security of the coin is enabled by work put into the system by miners.
Hypothetically there is some value in linking a commodity compute operation to crypto coin value. Intrinsic value is what you can get out of a commodity, not what you spent putting into it.
A cryptographically secure currency network is infinitely more valuable than a warm hotdog. In this example, the consequence of proof-of-work mining and transaction validation gives way to a distributed trust effect crypto currency.
Conversely, a global food distribution network is infinitely more valuable than a single dollar. You're conflating two radically unrelated things: The value of USD doesn't derive from the abstract utility of money. Understanding that we're talking over each other: I spend a bunch of money buying electricity to run my electric kettle but that doesn't mean there's a huge market for selling hot water.
You are correct, but your statement doesn't make a valid comparative argument against mine. Read up on the value of proof of work: Except when there are, like in areas that has central heating.
There is one actually: The value of money does not just appear, it is backed by everything everyone in a nation produces and consumes. Why is this the top rated comment? I just stopped reading it because of all the twisted logic, I was worried for my brain. Ask a question or offer a critique of my twisted logic and I'll respond to it. I have a chart that is just begging to disagree with you: And at the scale of the Euro and the USD, no less!
Also, if currencies were as magically stable as you presume, then "currency trader" wouldn't be a thing. This also wouldn't be a thing: Just like I can't carry a "negative cash value".
You either have cryptocurrency or you don't. And before you respond with "well then how would people buy houses and pay for college? And you know what? It's about time this happened, because fuck debt slavery. If you lend me 5 crypto coins with the understanding that I'll repay you 6 crypto coins next year then we have a system of credit.
The invention of credit predates the invention of money by thousands of years. In ancient times people would borrow seed under an agreement to repay at the harvest with associated penalties for default. Repeat after me; Petrodollar warfare is just a paranoid conspiracy theory. X4 days ago.
Just asking, but isn't there a flaw in the logic and that this is actually not a one-way, but a two-way system? It's an agreement between the us and the saudis, to only sell oil in dollars, in exchange for protection. Leaders of other countries trying to change that, were suddenly found to be dictators, deposed and killed. It holds its nominal price.
Finally, because of the oil thing, the us has been happily printing dollars, and exporting its inflation to the whole world, stealing everybody. Sorry, but you are the ignorant. USD is not volatile, nor are the other major currencies of the world. USD moves tiny amounts day to day and year to year versus other currencies. You are of course referring to inflation.
But inflation in the US has been a slow, gradual thing. The Fed was created years ago. Since your salary, and taxes, and almost all goods, were paid for in USD, it didn't matter if all the numbers crept up together slowly. They don't go up together. There is a time differential, with salaries trailing behind. People get constantly negatively affected this way.
Spammy, unsolicited and sneaky referrals may be removed without notice. If you need an exception from a rule for a specific reason send a message to the mods to discuss. Q - Tip, Dogemo shoots dogecoins at the enemy dealing damage, if used on a teamate gives them 20coins. W - Wowe, Dogemo shoots comic sans Wows at the enemy, dealing damage and confusing them for a while, causing them to fear.
E - Bark, Dogemo barks at the enemy, dealing damage and lowering their armour and magic resistance, if near the enemy, deals extra damage as a bite. R - To the moon! Dogemo shoots a rocket at the enemy, dealing massive damage and shooting dogecoins everywhere, if near, yourself and teammates get a 50coin tip.
R - Secret Stash - Dogemo hides a cache of coins. When an enemy walks over it, they are so busy picking up all the coins that they are unable to do anything else for several seconds. New gameplay feature - Neutral item shop with unique items that can only be purchased with coins. Damn Teemo players acting like the vision changes hurt his ult Like our whole team is going to buy sweeping lenses just to counter him. It's that time of year were I gain weight from all that chocolate!
Got approved to hang this beauty in the office i. My assistant doge at "work" i. Such science much protection i. My wife and kids made this home made Doge meme when I was fighting cancer. Was such amaze i. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. Log in or sign up in seconds.